[CA] [CA11] ST60+, seatalk1, seatalk NG, ray55e, A70D and ST2000+

[[email protected]]

Hi Chuck,
I am now considering adding a compass sensor to the system as you recommended earlier.
This will be the normal source of heading data but it will be disconnected when the ST 2000 autopilot is connected to the system (since my system cannot cope with multiple data sources).

Earlier in this post several you kindly provided suggestions for heading sensor as follows:
- EV-1 CCU,
- Airmar H2183,
- KVH AutoComp 1000,
- etc.

I have seen also seen some Raymarine flux gates avaialble second hand, including
- Fluxgate Compass Heading sensor Auto Pilot E12205
- Raymarine Autohelm 6000 Autopilot Fluxgate Compass
- Raymarine heading sensor E12198.

Could you please advise:
1. Are any of these second hand units would be suitable to provide heading data to my system?
2a. Are any of these units (including the units you suggested earlier) suitable for providing heading data directly to an NMEA connection (e.g. via one of my ST60+ Graphic displays) without the use of a separate instrument?
2b. If not, could you please suggest suitable sources of heading data that will not require a separate instrument to connect them in to my ST1 bus or ST NG network?

thanks
Dave

[Chuck - Raymarine - Moderator]

Dave,

Per my earlier response, equipment of the vintage specified is not designed to support multiple sources of any single type of data. Accordingly, should the ST2000+ be present in the system, then it must be the source of heading data for the system.

[[email protected]]

Hi Chuck,
I understand that my system cannot have multiple heading data sources.

The intention is to use the new heading source only when the ST 2000 autopilot is disconnected from the system (which is most of the time).

I've found the compass sensors listed below at reasonable prices and would value your opinion on their suitability to connect via NMEA (without using an additional heading instrument display) to either:
- one of my ST60+ Graphic displays or
- to my A70D plotter.

- Fluxgate Compass Heading sensor Auto Pilot E12205
- Raymarine Autohelm 6000 Autopilot Fluxgate Compass
- Raymarine heading sensor E12198.
- Raymarine Fluxgate transducer E22048
- JGTech Autonnic 10Hz compass transducer NMEA 0183
- CLIPPER CL-NCS NMEA COMPASS SENSOR
- Raymarine ST60 Plus Compass System Instrument A22014-P
- Digital Yacht HSC100 High Performance Fluxgate Sensor
- Raymarine Compass Transducer Part Number: T909

regards
Dave

[Chuck - Raymarine - Moderator]

Dave,

Fluxgate compasses alone cannot support outputting heading. I recommend stabilized heading sensors support 10Hz NMEA 0183 or SeaTalkng updates. This would not be supported by a heading sensor which has been interface to the system via its SeaTalk communications interface or by a NMEA 0183 heading sensor which has been interfaced to the NMEA 0183 input port of a ST60 Graphic.

- Fluxgate Compass Heading sensor Auto Pilot E12205 ... this is an autopilot course computer. This item would also require a compatible autopilot control head. I would not typically recommend this product for this application.

- Raymarine Autohelm 6000 Autopilot Fluxgate Compass ... ditto. This product also did not feature stabilized 10Hz heading output

- Raymarine heading sensor E12198 ... see comment regarding the first autopilot course computer listed above. However, unlike the previously specified a autopilot course computers, the SPX 10 may be mated to tiller drive, which in turn may be used to replace the ST2000.

- Raymarine Fluxgate transducer E22048 ... does not support stabilized 10Hz heading updates

- JGTech Autonnic 10Hz compass transducer NMEA 0183 ... I could find no data online concerning this product.

- CLIPPER CL-NCS NMEA COMPASS SENSOR ... only supports 1Hz heading updates

- Raymarine ST60 Plus Compass System Instrument A22014-P ... only supports 1Hz heading updates

- Digital Yacht HSC100 High Performance Fluxgate Sensor ... meets requirements ... would need to be interface to one of the MFD's NMEA 0183 input ports

- Raymarine Compass Transducer Part Number: T909 ... additional TackTick components required ... not stabilized.

[[email protected]]

Hi Chuck,
thank you very much for taking the time to research all those compasses.
I really appreciate it, this is great support considering that these are third party devices and not really Raymarine's problem!
It gives great peace of mind to know that I won't end up buying something that won't work with my Raymarine gear.

Thanks for confirming that the "Digital Yacht HSC100 High Performance Fluxgate Sensor" meets requirements and can be interfaced to one of the MFD's NMEA 0183 input ports.

A few more final questions. Sorry to be pedantic but I'd like to have everything clear before I commit to a purchase.

Q1. To clarify, when you mention "Stabilized" heading sensors, does this mean they need a gyro? Or is this just a characteristic of the instrument itself or its data output?

Q2A. I have attached the manual for the Autonnic Compass - it appears to be very similar to the HSC100, possibly the same basic item with a different branding.
Could you please let me know if the Autonnic NMEA 0183 compass 5023/5024 is suitable?
Q2B. If the Autonnic Compass also had a Rate of Turn NMEA output would this cause any problems with getting heading data out of it? It might be a useful option to have if I ever add an AIS Transceiver.

Q3A. I will have the Ray55E VHF providing distress position data to the A70D on one NMEA IN port (White and Green). Could the compass be interfaced to the A70D's other NMEA IN port (Orange/White and Orange/Green)?
Q3B. Will the A70D output heading data to the STNG network and thence to the ST1 bus?

Q4A. Alternatively, could I connect the compass to one of the ST 60+ Graphic Display's NMEA IN ports? (The manual says HDG is not supported on NMEA IN, just double checking).
Q4B If HDG can be received, will the ST60+ Graphic Display output heading data to the ST1 bus and thence to the STNG Network?

Q5. Is there any advantage in terms of performance and/or accuracy to either of the above options 3 and 4?

I am thinking of fitting a three way switch to swap the heading data source between the Compass and the Autopilot.

By way of context, I do not normally use the autopilot to steer the boat but I have to set it up on deck to provide heading data for navigation, set/drift and TWD calculation.
It would be more convenient to have a stand alone source of heading data so that I do not need to set up the tiller pilot to provide heading data when I'm not using it to steer the boat.

My intention would be to wire the switch to operate in two positions:
Position 1: Connect compass's +ve NMEA OUT wire and disconnect the Autopilot Yellow ST1 wire (when the Compass is in use as the heading data source).
Position 2: connect the Autopilot Yellow ST1 wire and disconnect the Compass's positive NMEA OUT wire whenever the Autopilot is plugged in and in use (to enable track and wind modes).

The switch will be set up so that only one heading data source can be connected at any time.
Q6A. Do you see any problems with this arrangement (apart form possible differences in the actual heading output)?
Q6B. With the tiller pilot disconnected from the network (Position 1), I assume I could still use the tiller pilot to steer the boat but it would not get Navigation or Wind data, so could only operate in Compass steering mode (and might have a different heading to the other compass). True?

Q7. Are there any specific Serial settings (Baud rate, data bits, stop bit, parity)that the ST60+ and A70D will or will not work with?

Thanks again for the great support.

regards
Dave

[Chuck - Raymarine - Moderator]

Dave,

General comments:
- Raymarine products are not designed and tested for use with any specific third party manufacturer's products. Raymarine products are designed and tested for integration other Raymarine products. With regard to interfacing Raymarine equipment to third party products, Raymarine designs many of its products to include marine industry standard NMEA 0183 and/or NMEA 2000 communications interfaces. Should a third party product not conform to this standard and thereby cause it to be incompatible with the Raymarine product and should the root cause of such incompatibility be rooted within the design of the third party product, then corrective action would be responsibility of the third party manufacturer and/or of the owner who is seeking to interface the third party product to the Raymarine product.

Q1. To clarify, when you mention "Stabilized" heading sensors, does this mean they need a gyro? Or is this just a characteristic of the instrument itself or its data output?
A1. Stabilization of heading data is commonly achieved through use of a gyro which is embedded within the heading sensor's design. Such stabilization is not required for any Raymarine product features except for radar target tracking, but will yield greater accuracy in the heading data supplied to the system. Accordingly, should those seeking to maximize the performance of features requiring heading data, then it would be recommended that a 10Hz stabilized heading source be selected.

Q2A. I have attached the manual for the Autonnic Compass - it appears to be very similar to the HSC100, possibly the same basic item with a different branding.
Could you please let me know if the Autonnic NMEA 0183 compass 5023/5024 is suitable?
A2A. The communications interfaces of the Autonnic Compass and HSC100 appear to differ. Like the A-Series Classic MFDs, the HSC100 appears to have a differential RS422 4800 BAUD NMEA 0183 communications interface. In contrast, the Autonnic Compass appears to feature single ended RS422 4800 BAUD NMEA 0183 communications interface. While this is typically not an issue, it would necessitate interfacing the Autonnic Compass to the Raymarine system in an manner similar to that which one would employ to interface most Garmin products featuring a NMEA 0183 communications interface to the system (i.e. should the Garmin product lack a NMEA 0183 OUT negative lead, then the MFD's NMEA 0183 input lead would be interfaced to the Garmin product's data/power ground lead, which in turn would be interfaced to battery ground). I would recommend that you consult with Autonnic's Support Team on this matter.

Q2B. If the Autonnic Compass also had a Rate of Turn NMEA output would this cause any problems with getting heading data out of it? It might be a useful option to have if I ever add an AIS Transceiver.
A2B. This would have no effect upon the Raymarine system.

Q3A. I will have the Ray55E VHF providing distress position data to the A70D on one NMEA IN port (White and Green). Could the compass be interfaced to the A70D's other NMEA IN port (Orange/White and Orange/Green)?
A3A. Yes. However, I generally recommend interfacing the heading sensor directly to the system's SeaTalkng / NMEA 2000 backbone to permit access to this data irrespective of the power state of the MFD. An Actisense NGW-1-ISO-STNG NMEA 0183 to SeaTalkng/NMEA 2000 data bridging device would typically be used for such purposes. This will permit the devices interfaced to the SeaTalkng / NMEA 2000 backbone to have access to 1Hz data and instruments on the SeaTalk bus to have access to 1Hz heading data.

Q3B. Will the A70D output heading data to the STNG network and thence to the ST1 bus?
A3B. Yes.

Q4A. Alternatively, could I connect the compass to one of the ST 60+ Graphic Display's NMEA IN ports? (The manual says HDG is not supported on NMEA IN, just double checking).
A4A. N/A ... see the response to Q1. Interfacing the heading source to the ST60 graphic would reduce the heading rate to 1Hz for all devices within the system.

Q4B If HDG can be received, will the ST60+ Graphic Display output heading data to the ST1 bus and thence to the STNG Network?
A4B. Yes. However, see the downside of this approach specified above.

Q5. Is there any advantage in terms of performance and/or accuracy to either of the above options 3 and 4?
A4. 3 is better than 4. However, the previously stated recommendation regarding the use of a NMEA 0183 to SeaTalkng data bridging device will offer the greatest performance to the system.

Q6. I am thinking of fitting a three way switch to swap the heading data source between the Compass and the Autopilot. By way of context, I do not normally use the autopilot to steer the boat but I have to set it up on deck to provide heading data for navigation, set/drift and TWD calculation.
It would be more convenient to have a stand alone source of heading data so that I do not need to set up the tiller pilot to provide heading data when I'm not using it to steer the boat.

My intention would be to wire the switch to operate in two positions:
Position 1: Connect compass's +ve NMEA OUT wire and disconnect the Autopilot Yellow ST1 wire (when the Compass is in use as the heading data source).
Position 2: connect the Autopilot Yellow ST1 wire and disconnect the Compass's positive NMEA OUT wire whenever the Autopilot is plugged in and in use (to enable track and wind modes).

The switch will be set up so that only one heading data source can be connected at any time.
Q6A. Do you see any problems with this arrangement (apart form possible differences in the actual heading output)?
A6A. Negative.

Q6B. With the tiller pilot disconnected from the network (Position 1), I assume I could still use the tiller pilot to steer the boat but it would not get Navigation or Wind data, so could only operate in Compass steering mode (and might have a different heading to the other compass). True?
A6B. True. However, you may want to consider interfacing the autopilot's NMEA 0183 input port to the NMEA 0183 output port of the MFD (NMEA 0183 output may be paralleled). The MFD will not transmit heading data to the autopilot. However, you should verify that the heading of the autopilot and third party heading sensor are reasonably close (+/- 5 degrees) to one another in their respective heading values produced.

Q7. Are there any specific Serial settings (Baud rate, data bits, stop bit, parity)that the ST60+ and A70D will or will not work with?
A7. Again, the Raymarine MFD supports differential 4800 BAUD NMEA 0183 communications. I would recommend consulting with Autonnic's Support Team should you elect to move forward with this third party product.

[[email protected]]

Hi Chuck,
Thanks for another very helpful response.

Regarding your response to question 6b, as follows, “consider interfacing the autopilot's NMEA 0183 input port to the NMEA 0183 output port of the MFD (NMEA 0183 output may be paralleled). The MFD will not transmit heading data to the autopilot.”

This is a much neater solution than my idea of using a switch to change heading sources. Thanks for the suggestion.

Q1. Am I correct in assuming I can have the autopilot and third party compass both permanently connected?

Q1. I assume that the autopilot still uses it’s own compass but the MFD and other instruments use the third party compass’ heading data in this arrangement, hence the need for both compasses to be closely aligned?

It seems to me that the only time heading discrepancy might be an issue is when using track mode on the autopilot.
Q2A. If there was any discrepancy between the two heading sources the autopilot (when in track mode) would see the discrepancy as current or leeway and compensate accordingly. Initially the boat might be off course by the amount of the discrepancy but it would soon return to the track. True?
Q2B. Are there any other problems you foresee regarding heading discrepancies?

In summary, could I connect up as follows:
- Autpilot NMEA IN, pin 6 (+) and pin 5 (-) connected to MFD NMEA OUT Orange/Yellow (+) and Orange/Brown (-).
Provides wind data from ST1 instruments, via ST1/STNG Converter, to the MFD. Then the wind and navigation data go by NMEA to the autopilot.
Autopilot heading data is not output to the system on the MFD NMEA OUT connection. And compass heading data is not sent from the MFD to the autopilot.
- Third Party compass NMEA OUT connected to MFD NMEA IN Orange/White (+), Orange/Green (-) [or to ground depending on compass comm type].
Provides Heading data to the MFD and hence via STNG/ST1 converter to the ST1 instruments (for heading display and set/drift and true wind calculations etc.).
- Autopilot Seatalk 1 (pins 2 and 4) disconnected (to exclude autopilot heading data from the ST1 bus). Autopilot has only power and NMEA IN connected.
- the MFD’s other NMEA IN/OUT ports (white/green and yellow/brown) will remain connected to the Ray55e VHF (so there’s no need to parallel the NMEA connections).

Does that sound ok?

Thanks again for the great support and good ideas.
Regards
Dave

[Chuck - Raymarine - Moderator]

Dave,

Q1. Am I correct in assuming I can have the autopilot and third party compass both permanently connected?
A1. Yes ... if the autopilot is disconnected from the SeaTalk bus and is instead interfaced to the system via its NMEA 0183 input port as was previously recommended.

Q2. I assume that the autopilot still uses it’s own compass but the MFD and other instruments use the third party compass’ heading data in this arrangement, hence the need for both compasses to be closely aligned?
A2. Correct.

Q3a. - Autpilot NMEA IN, pin 6 (+) and pin 5 (-) connected to MFD NMEA OUT Orange/Yellow (+) and Orange/Brown (-).
Provides wind data from ST1 instruments, via ST1/STNG Converter, to the MFD. Then the wind and navigation data go by NMEA to the autopilot.
Autopilot heading data is not output to the system on the MFD NMEA OUT connection. And compass heading data is not sent from the MFD to the autopilot.
A3a. Correct.

Q3b. - Third Party compass NMEA OUT connected to MFD NMEA IN Orange/White (+), Orange/Green (-) [or to ground depending on compass comm type].
Provides Heading data to the MFD and hence via STNG/ST1 converter to the ST1 instruments (for heading display and set/drift and true wind calculations etc.).
A3b. Heading sensor NMEA OUT+ connected to MFD NMEA IN Orange/White (+); Orange/Green (-) to NMEA 0183 OUT- lead of heading sensor. If using a sensor featuring single ended NMEA 0183 communications, consult with 3rd party heading sensor manufacturer.

Q3c - Autopilot Seatalk 1 (pins 2 and 4) disconnected (to exclude autopilot heading data from the ST1 bus). Autopilot has only power and NMEA IN connected.
A3c - Autopilot features 3 SeaTalk pins ... disconnect SeaTalk cable from all 3 pins

Q4. - the MFD’s other NMEA IN/OUT ports (white/green and yellow/brown) will remain connected to the Ray55e VHF (so there’s no need to parallel the NMEA connections).
A4. Noted.

[[email protected]]

Hi Chuck,
Thanks again for taking the time to clarify every detail for me. It really is greatly appreciated and I think the systems is going to be very capable considering it is made up out of discontinued bits and pieces.

With regard to the rearrangement of the autopilot communications to accommodate the third party compass it has occurred to me (eventually) that replacing the Autopilot’s seatalk connection with NMEA IN from the A70D MFD will mean that I no longer get Autopilot status and warnings on my ST60+ instrument displays.
Q1. Could you please conform that is correct?

As per an earlier post, I have considered adding an ST6002 pilot controller to the system and I guess this would provide a more useful display/control/alarm option for the ST2000 tiller pilot.
It has been most useful to have the pilot data displayed on the ST60 instruments because the ST2000 display is really not useful due to its size and location.

So, I have two plans in mind:

Plan A: Without changing anything else, connect the ST6002 via seatalk to the ST2000 Seatalk pins.

Q2. Would I have control/display/alarms to/from the ST6002 to without affecting the functionality of the rest of the system.
Q3. Would the Autpilot transmit Wind/Nav data (that it receives via NMEA from the A70D) to the ST6002 so that all Autpilot functions (i.e. track and Wind Steering) would be controllable from the ST6002?

Plan B: Connect pilot and controller via Seatalk as per plan A and additionally, connect the ST6002 to the Seatalk bus for the rest of the ST60+ instruments.

This would give me the added function of displaying other instrument data on the ST6002 and possibly provide pilot status/alarms to the ST60+ instruments.
But I suspect this would cause heading data from the ST2000
to be transmitted to the ST1 bus and thence to the STNG network and therefore give me a problem with two sources of heading data in the system.
Q4. Could this arrangement work or do you have any other ideas to maximise the functionality?

I think Plan A is good enough if it works but your opinion on Plan B or other options would be greatly appreciated.

I’ll work up a layout drawing as soon as I get a chance if clarification is required.

Cheers
Dave

[Chuck - Raymarine - Moderator]

Q1. With regard to the rearrangement of the autopilot communications to accommodate the third party compass it has occurred to me (eventually) that replacing the Autopilot’s seatalk connection with NMEA IN from the A70D MFD will mean that I no longer get Autopilot status and warnings on my ST60+ instrument displays. Could you please conform that is correct?
A1. Correct. Such status and warning data are not transmitted across NMEA 0183, even if configured for bi-directional communications.

Q2. Plan A: Without changing anything else, connect the ST6002 via seatalk to the ST2000 Seatalk pins. Would I have control/display/alarms to/from the ST6002 to without affecting the functionality of the rest of the system.
A2. Yes.

Q3. Would the Autpilot transmit Wind/Nav data (that it receives via NMEA from the A70D) to the ST6002 so that all Autpilot functions (i.e. track and Wind Steering) would be controllable from the ST6002?
A3. Yes.

Q4. Plan B: Connect pilot and controller via Seatalk as per plan A and additionally, connect the ST6002 to the Seatalk bus for the rest of the ST60+ instruments. This would give me the added function of displaying other instrument data on the ST6002 and possibly provide pilot status/alarms to the ST60+ instruments. But I suspect this would cause heading data from the ST2000 to be transmitted to the ST1 bus and thence to the STNG network and therefore give me a problem with two sources of heading data in the system. Could this arrangement work or do you have any other ideas to maximise the functionality?
A4. The heading issue which you have suggested would indeed occur if Plan B were implemented. Unfortunately, equipment of this vintage was only designed for single sources of each type of data.