[CA] Adding STNG and N2K to exisiting Seatalk

[Grantj]

I need help to properly integrate an existing 2004 SeaTalk installation with the addition of new equipment. The current setup has (2) C-120 Classic MFD's connected to a RS120 GPS thru a D244 junction block. In addition, there are (2) ST60 depth instruments daisy-chained together, with one of them powered from a 12V buss. The C-120's and the ST60's are not connected to each other. I would like to connect those 5 devices together on a single SeaTalk network. In addition, I want to add the following:

EV-150 A/Pilot pack
NMEA 2000 AIS device
STNG network as required
NMEA2000 backbone for future expansion
Actisense NGT-1 NMEA2000 to USB gateway for PC access.

I believe I have the network connections figured out, using the SeaTalk to SeatalkNG convertor and various cables, etc. I need to confirm the correct way to power the SeaTalk bus in this configuration. Right now, the ST-60's are powered from a 12V source to one instrument, and the C-120(s) appear to be the power source for the RS120. I know the RS120 has to stay on the SeaTalk network to function. What would be the best way to supply power to this setup?
(2) PDF diagrams attached, any help much appreciated!

[Chuck - Raymarine - Moderator]

Welcome to the Raymarine Forum Grant,

Your proposed new system diagram is correct in how the SeaTalkng backbone will be powered except for one item ... the SeaTalk port of the C-Series Classic MFDs produces power. Accordingly, the red lead of the SeaTalk cables which are connecting the C-Series Classic MFDs to the SeaTalk bus will not be used. This may necessitate cutting these cables and then splicing two of the cables leads back together, leaving the cable's red leads unspliced and insulated to prevent shorting.

Please note that the C-Series Classic MFDs are exclusively designed to process AIS data received via the MFD's NMEA 0183 port. Accordingly, should the AIS receiver/transceiver shown within your diagram feature a NMEA 0183 communications interface, then it should be interfaced to the input leads (yellow and brown) of the MFD's NMEA 0183 Cable and the MFD's NMEA 0183 port should be configured for 38400 BAUD NMEA 0183 communications (AIS 38400).

The MFDs will need to be powered via their respective power cables. The ACU will need to be powered via its power terminals.

Finally, it is recommended that the SeaTalk to SeaTalkng Converter be updated with v2.03 software. As it is not possible to update SeaTalkng devices via a C-Series Classic MFD, it would be recommended that it be updated by your dealer or by Raymarine's Product Repair Center.

[Grantj]

Chuck, thanks for the quick response.

Thanks for clarifying that the C-120's ST port does actually output 12V onto the buss - I have received conflicting information on this. I have an unused R55006 Junction box, that I think I could use to break out the red power leads from each MFD, and combine the yellow/drain wires together to make a single SeaTalk connector to the E25049 5-way block. Does this sound acceptable?

I understand the SeaTalk-SeaTalk NG convertor does NOT support data bridging of AIS data from the STNG buss to the ST bus. Fortunately the Em-trak B300 unit has both N2K and NMEA 0183 outputs, as well as multiplexing capability, so I should be able to get the 0183HS data directly to both C-120's NMEA ports, as well as on to the N2K network for translation by the Actisense gateway as well. At least, that's the plan.

If I buy a new E22158 kit, wouldn't it automatically ship with the latest firmware? I know I can't update it from a C-120, which is unfortunate... how do I confirm the firmware version before I leave the store??

Also - does RM publish a list of approved PGN-Seatalk sentences that are supported over the SeaTalk-SeatalkNG convertor yet? If not, is that in the works, or are they intentionally withholding that information?

Finally - having a difficult time getting the software upgraded to 5.16 on the C-120's, using a 8MB Compact Flash card, cleanly formatted as FAT, and just the two .DOB and .pkg files in the root directory. Is there any reason this shouldn't work? I got two blue screens and gave up... (see attached)

Thanks for all your help!

Grant

[Chuck - Raymarine - Moderator]

Grant,

Q1. Thanks for clarifying that the C-120's ST port does actually output 12V onto the buss - I have received conflicting information on this. I have an unused R55006 Junction box, that I think I could use to break out the red power leads from each MFD, and combine the yellow/drain wires together to make a single SeaTalk connector to the E25049 5-way block. Does this sound acceptable?
A1. Yes.

Q2. I understand the SeaTalk-SeaTalk NG convertor does NOT support data bridging of AIS data from the STNG buss to the ST bus. Fortunately the Em-trak B300 unit has both N2K and NMEA 0183 outputs, as well as multiplexing capability, so I should be able to get the 0183HS data directly to both C-120's NMEA ports, as well as on to the N2K network for translation by the Actisense gateway as well. At least, that's the plan.
A2. Regarding bridging of AIS data to SeaTalk, it is more correct stated that the SeaTalk communications protocol does support transmission of AIS data. Otherwise, the statement is correct.

Q3. If I buy a new E22158 kit, wouldn't it automatically ship with the latest firmware? I know I can't update it from a C-120, which is unfortunate... how do I confirm the firmware version before I leave the store??
A3. During manufacturing Raymarine products are programmed with the latest available software. However, should the product remain long enough in the dealer's or distributor's inventory, then the software within the product may not be current. The software level of a device may easily be determined by interfacing it to a compatible MFD which is running the latest LightHouse II or LightHouse 3 software ... check with dealer. Additionally, the packaging of the product may feature a label identifying the version of software installed within its memory.

Q4. Also - does RM publish a list of approved PGN-Seatalk sentences that are supported over the SeaTalk-SeatalkNG convertor yet? If not, is that in the works, or are they intentionally withholding that information?
A4. The documentation for the ST-STng Converter has not been updated since it was introduced. At that time, no mention was made of NMEA 2000 and the ST-STng Converter has not been NMEA 2000 Certified. That said, it is quite commonly used for this purpose. A feature request has been submitted to request that this document be updated to include a list of supported PGNs and SeaTalk data items supported.

Q5. Finally - having a difficult time getting the software upgraded to 5.16 on the C-120's, using a 8MB Compact Flash card, cleanly formatted as FAT, and just the two .DOB and .pkg files in the root directory. Is there any reason this shouldn't work? I got two blue screens and gave up... (see attached)
A4. The symptoms shown are indicative of a CF memory card which is not compatible with the MFD's memory card reader or with a memory card reader which may be failing. The reader may be tested by verifying its ability to access cartography from the Navionics chart card. Please click here to view a FAQ addressing recommendations for obtaining a compatible CF memory card which has been populated with the final software update files for your display.

[Grantj]

Chuck, thank you again for your detailed and timely response. I appreciate the clarification on Q2, and the other answers.
Re Q4, just to confirm, when I asked about a list of "PGN to SeaTalk sentences" that were supported, I was referring to the STNG messages (as opposed to NMEA2000 PGN's) that were translatable on to the Seatalk1 buss - and vice-versa. I'm not clear how RM refers to the messages carried over STNG, I thought you used standard NMEA 2000 PGN terminology, but perhaps not. And I REALLY don't know how to refer to data messages under SeaTalk, as they are obviously not referred to by 0183 sentences (GGA, STW, etc). But that was my question, trying to ensure that the needed data from the SeaTalk side (Depth, GPS position, course/nav information for the autopilot from the C-120, etc) will make it over to the STNG side, and also as much useful and available STNG/NMEA2000 data make the translation to the SeaTalk side.

Re Q5, I read over the links, that was helpful. One thing I caught was that in addition to the 128MB maximum size, there was also a mention of a 32MB minimum - so perhaps, my 8MB card was just to "small" for the MFD to read. The MFD does read a Navionics chart card just fine, so I'll try another CF card and see.

Finally (for today!) - if I encounter other questions/issues during this install, can or should I append to this post, or would you prefer I create new posts in specific forums (Autopilot, AIS, MFD's, etc.)?
Many thanks,

[Chuck - Raymarine - Moderator]

Grant,

Q1. my question, trying to ensure that the needed data from the SeaTalk side (Depth, GPS position, course/nav information for the autopilot from the C-120, etc) will make it over to the STNG side, and also as much useful and available STNG/NMEA2000 data make the translation to the SeaTalk side.
A1. These data items will indeed bridge between SeaTalk and SeaTalkng.

Q2. Re Q5, I read over the links, that was helpful. One thing I caught was that in addition to the 128MB maximum size, there was also a mention of a 32MB minimum - so perhaps, my 8MB card was just to "small" for the MFD to read. The MFD does read a Navionics chart card just fine, so I'll try another CF card and see.
A2. Noted. As indicated, should software update be unable to be achieved using your CF memory cards, then as indicate within the referenced FAQ, it is strongly recommended that Radar Marine be contacted to order a CF memory card which has populated with the final software update files for a C-Series Classic MFD.

Q3. If I encounter other questions/issues during this install, can or should I append to this post, or would you prefer I create new posts in specific forums (Autopilot, AIS, MFD's, etc.)?
A3. Should further questions arise concerning how to interface the equipment, then they should be appended to this thread. Should other issues concerning the performance or operation of one of the specified devices, then a new thread(s) should be created accordingly.

[Grantj]

OK many thanks. You made reference to obtaining a CF card from Radar Marine (locally for me, actually) to obtain a card with the "final software update files for a C-Series Classic MFD."
Q0: Should I take this to mean that there will be no future updates for this series of MFD?
I'm now struggling with GPS issues - and getting 0183 data @4800 baud to (2) VHF radios. I thought I had this covered, but maybe not. The documentation on the boat was for a RS120 - it now appears (photos attached) that this has been upgraded to a RS125. It's definitely not an RS130, as there is no STNG connector. So far I have not been able to find the splice from the cable attached to the GPS (white), and the other end which terminates at a D244 3-way SeaTalk block. It's buried somewhere.
Q1: Based on the Statistics data pages (attached), it appears that the GPS is currently providing inputs via SeaTalk, and the MFD is providing outputs (to the VHF) via 0183 - would you agree?
Q2: Did the RS125 receiver output BOTH 0183 AND SeaTalk sentences simultaneously? The manual shows wiring connection options for both, but it's unclear if there were two different versions of RS125 (like the RS120), or that it just outputs two different formats simultaneously.
Q3 - If yes to above, is it possible to "split" the data output of the RS125 at a junction box, with one feed to the VHF radios (0183), and the other feed to the SeaTalk connectors on the (2) C-120's?
Q3(a) If Yes to above - could you provide a suggested wiring diagram for the split?
Q4 - If no to the split - any other ideas on how to get GPS data to the VHF's? I have to configure the single 0183 Port on the MFD's to 38,400 for the AIS in, so I can't use a 38,400 output for the VHF. I'm running out of ideas (other than introducing multiple N2K-0183 gateways for each VHF, or some other unwieldy Rube Goldberg setup)...

Many thanks as always,

[Chuck - Raymarine - Moderator]

Grant,

Q1: Should I take this to mean that there will be no future updates for this series of MFD?
A1: Correct. Three generations of Raymarine MDS have been introduced since production of the C-Series Classic MFDs ended.

Q2: Based on the Statistics data pages (attached), it appears that the GPS is currently providing inputs via SeaTalk, and the MFD is providing outputs (to the VHF) via 0183 - would you agree?
A2: Correct.

Q3: Did the RS125 receiver output BOTH 0183 AND SeaTalk sentences simultaneously? The manual shows wiring connection options for both, but it's unclear if there were two different versions of RS125 (like the RS120), or that it just outputs two different formats simultaneously.
A3. Negative. Depending upon how the RS125 was interfaced to the system, it would either support NMEA 0183 communications or SeaTalk communications, but could not simultaneously communicate via both protocols.

Q4: If yes to above, is it possible to "split" the data output of the RS125 at a junction box, with one feed to the VHF radios (0183), and the other feed to the SeaTalk connectors on the (2) C-120's?
A4: Negative

Q4(b): If Yes to above - could you provide a suggested wiring diagram for the split?
A4(b): N/A

Q5: If no to the split - any other ideas on how to get GPS data to the VHF's? I have to configure the single 0183 Port on the MFD's to 38,400 for the AIS in, so I can't use a 38,400 output for the VHF. I'm running out of ideas (other than introducing multiple N2K-0183 gateways for each VHF, or some other unwieldy Rube Goldberg setup)...
A5: Should an E70196 VHF NMEA 0183 to STng Converter Kit be added to the SeaTalkng / NMEA 0183 backbone, then its 4800 BAUD NMEA 0183 output may be split to supply GPS data to both VHF radios. This option has the advantage not requiring the MFDs to be switched on when using the VHF radios. The $GP Talker ID is included within NMEA 0183 sentences transmitted by the VHF NMEA 0183 to STng Converter Kit, making it compatible with VHF radios from a wider range of manufacturers.

Alternatively, you may want to consider whether you really need AIS data to be sent to both MFDs. While is quite common to split a 4800 BAUD NMEA 0183 signal to supply data to up to three devices, it is not typically recommended that 38400 BAUD NMEA 0183 be split, Should this be satisfactory, then the 4800 BAUD NMEA 0183 output of one of the MFDs may be split to supply GPS data to the VHF radios. The $EC Talker ID is included within NMEA 0183 sentences transmitted by the C-Series Classic MFDs, making it incompatible with some VHF radios of some third party manufacturers.

[Grantj]

OK Thank you again.
I will check with the owner on whether he needs/wants AIS on the bridge as well as the pilothouse. If not, then we can dedicate one of the C-120's NMEA port for the (2) VHF's as you suggested. I'd already thought of that, but if it were me I would not want to sacrifice AIS to get DSC.

Thanks for the pointer to the E70196. Looks a lot like an E22158. I'll look into adding this as an option. Is there some reason the instruction sheet/manual is not available for download? I also could find no mention of any prohibition to using two listeners with a single 0183-HS talker, including on the NMEA website. Is there a basis for this caution?

Given that the GPS has now been identified as an RS125 and not an RS120 as originally thought, and that it will require it's own dedicated R52131 convertor, I will have to redesign and upload another proposed system diagram, to include the VHF's. Coming soon...

Also - a new SanDisk 128MB CF card was purchased, and loaded in both C-120's for firmware update - they both ignored it and booted normally multiple times. Makes me wonder how these units ever got updated before now. Anyhow Rob at Radar Marine says he can't explain it either, all he knows is his cards work. I ordered one, we'll see.

The new proposed diagram to include the following:

1) Second E22158 dedicated to Raystar RS125 GPS receiver.
2) E70196 to convert STng position data to provide 0183 position date to (2) VHF's @ 4,800.
3) R55006 Junction box, to separate and cap off red power wires from C-120 MFD outputs, and combine data/ground conductors to a single SeaTalk output to D244 3-way junction block.

Please advise any potential issues with this setup as modified. Also - please advise approximate LEN or calculation method for legacy ST devices, when adding them to the STng network using the E21158's as shown. As the C-120's will not be connected to network power, my calculation shows just the two ST-60 Depth and the RS125 GPS as loads on the network.

Thank you,

[Chuck - Raymarine - Moderator]

Grant,

Q1. I will check with the owner on whether he needs/wants AIS on the bridge as well as the pilothouse. If not, then we can dedicate one of the C-120's NMEA port for the (2) VHF's as you suggested. I'd already thought of that, but if it were me I would not want to sacrifice AIS to get DSC.
A1. From the standpoint of access to AIS data via both MFDs, this is indeed subjective. Should the two MFDs be located at the same steering station, then it would typically be recommended that the NMEA 0183 AIS data source be interfaced the MFD which will primarily be used as the system's chartplotter. However, should the two MFDs be located at different stations, then it may be desirable to have access to AIS data at both stations.

Q2. Thanks for the pointer to the E70196. Looks a lot like an E22158. I'll look into adding this as an option. Is there some reason the instruction sheet/manual is not available for download?
A2. Please click here to view a FAQ addressing this subject. Raymarine's web master will be contacted to add any documentation for the E70196 posted with Raymarine's other Manuals and Documents. The E70196 is indeed nothing more than a E22158 which has a different cable (two leads) to support interfacing the ST-STng Converter to a 4800 BAUD NMEA 0183 listener requiring basic GPS data (VHF radio, SSB, etc.).

Q3. I also could find no mention of any prohibition to using two listeners with a single 0183-HS talker, including on the NMEA website. Is there a basis for this caution?
A3. While I too am not aware of any specification which prohibits splitting the of a 38400 BAUD output of an AIS receiver, it has been our experience that intermittent data communications may result. Accordingly, should you opt to move forward with interfacing both of the MFDs to the AIS receiver in the method proposed by your diagram, and should a problem persist, then it would accordingly be recommended that one of the MFDs be disconnected from the AIS data source.

Q4. Given that the GPS has now been identified as an RS125 and not an RS120 as originally thought, and that it will require it's own dedicated R52131 convertor.
A4. This unnecessary unless it is more convenient to interface the RS125 as shown. As the RS125 is designed to support SeaTalk communications and the present SeaTalk bus features only four devices, the RS125 may be added to the SeaTalk bus via the SeaTalk Auxiliary Junction Box, by adding another D244 SeaTalk Junction Block, using a terminal strip, etc.

Q5. Also - a new SanDisk 128MB CF card was purchased, and loaded in both C-120's for firmware update - they both ignored it and booted normally multiple times. Makes me wonder how these units ever got updated before now. Anyhow Rob at Radar Marine says he can't explain it either, all he knows is his cards work. I ordered one, we'll see.
A5. The results which you have specified are not atypical. While compatible CF memory cards were readily available during the period when the C-Series Classic MFDs were sold by Raymarine, they are far less common today. As Rob indicated, the CF memory card available through Radar Marine work quite well.

The new proposed diagram to include the following:

Q6. Second E22158 dedicated to Raystar RS125 GPS receiver.
A6. See the response to Q4.

Q7. E70196 to convert STng position data to provide 0183 position date to (2) VHF's @ 4,800.
A7. Correct

Q8. R55006 Junction box, to separate and cap off red power wires from C-120 MFD outputs, and combine data/ground conductors to a single SeaTalk output to D244 3-way junction block.
A8. Correct.

Q9. Please advise any potential issues with this setup as modified. Also - please advise approximate LEN or calculation method for legacy ST devices, when adding them to the STng network using the E21158's as shown. As the C-120's will not be connected to network power, my calculation shows just the two ST-60 Depth and the RS125 GPS as loads on the network.
A9. The location of your proposed power insertion spur should be adequate.